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To the Breaking the Stigma podcast with McNeal and Company. The mission of this podcast is to offer education and resources for first responders, wellness, mental health, and resiliency. The host of this podcast are not mental health professionals, but all information shared will be in conjunction with either a certified training or mental health expert. We are here to break the stigma around mental health discussion. That being said, some of our topics may be triggering or upsetting to our listeners. If at any time you are overwhelmed, we encourage you to pause the podcast or forward to the end where we will list the hotline. You can call for immediate help and conversation with a professional. Please be safe and gentle with yourself. We need you here and we want to help.

Welcome back to Breaking the Stigma Podcast with Jason Salazar and Kayla Lyon. Today I'm joined with Kayla and we're gonna be talking with Jim Hyde, owner, founder of Peer Support Central. First and foremost, thanks for joining us today. Do you wanna give us a little bit of your background?

Yeah, be happy to, and thank you for the opportunity to help out. So , uh, Jim Hyde , uh, 31 years of law enforcement in Northern California as every assignment you can imagine, law enforcement top to bottom, and then spent 15 years with the California Army National Guard Training soldiers before they deployed to the Middle East, Iraq or Afghanistan or some other place in peer support , training up peer support members, and , um, psychological survival. And then , uh, the last two years in my Army uniform was working predominantly with Air Force Drone crews or remotely piloted aircraft. Because of the nature of their work, they can't talk about their work, but of course their work is very difficult and impactful on them. Master's in clinical psychology, do a lot of work with , uh, first responders across the country, teaching peer support programs and also with , uh, soldiers and then coaching up peer support coordinators and kind of jack all trades that the job kind of taught us. It gave us the job, gave us a set of skills that , uh, we don't appreciate to move on, do something else in the world .

Absolutely. That is a very, very awesome resume. And you obviously have plenty of knowledge from the first responder side, the psychology aspect. What made you wanna start something like peer support Central?

Well , originally where I got involved in peer support was back to back shooting six weeks apart . I'd had a couple dead kid calls before that and it just, all things just came together in cumulative effect. And I was working at Sacramento Police Department at the time, and , uh, they had a pretty robust peer support team and they came and a couple members helped me out and , uh, got me lined up with resources. And then after about a year, year and a half, getting back on my feet, still working, but you kind of working through it with some help. Um, got invited to go to the peer sport training and then after that got invited to be a team member and just kind of grew through that experience. Eventually became a coordinator , um, with someone who eventually would be my wife , uh, Susan, who also was , uh, working at Sacramento pd. So I think part of it is just the personal experience of going through tough times. The other part of that is , um, helping people through tough times. So it just becomes a passion. You know, you , you don't do first responder work just because you can't do, you know, you can't figure something out, you can't find your life. It's a calling for many of us, and it's a passion and you really need to keep the passion if you want to stay. Uh , otherwise you really become ineffective. So just helping people get that, that part of their , um, their life and their soul back to them , uh, so they can go out and , uh, complete the mission.

Absolutely. That's something you don't hear as much about is the emotional aspect of the job. You know, you see there's physical aspects , stuff you go through the, in the academy when you're on shift, but then the emotional aspects. Can you give us just like a , an overview of what, for people who may not know, I know some parts of the country it's not as prominent, some parts, it's not something that they really incorporate in their organization. What is peer support?

Well , peer support is just a , a team varies from size based upon the, the organization numbers, how big they are, and just building an , what we call as embedded behavioral health program of peers, trained peers to help us, you know, kind of vent about the things around the job, the career, but also have a list of resources to get us to what we call as , uh, culturally competent mental health clinicians. What I mean culturally competent is , um, they have a specialized training and they understand the culture of first responders and which is very similar to the culture of military professionals. And we have a set of , uh, assumptions that we accept , uh, traits and perceptions we accept as first responders to join the profession and succeed in the profession. So basically it's , uh, someone who has a higher level of skill training would incorporate some of the psychological concepts, but also active listening skills, looking for signs if someone's really struggling emotionally. And two, if they're considering, you know, hurting themselves and then substance abuse under have a better understanding of that. So what what I would say to soldiers when I train 'em up to be peers before they deploy is if I can teach you this set of skills to look at somebody and say, Hey, he or she is struggling with these symptoms, is to get them care sooner than later, right? It'd be like , uh, covid symptoms, if you identified earlier, the impact's gonna be less. So you know that that's what we do. Uh, it's not someone who's your best friend. The problem with using your best friend as your peer all the time is sometimes our best friends can be pretty judgmental and hurtful. Uh, there's also other things we don't wanna tell our best friend because it may involve other aspects of our life. Like, you know, our, our , our remit relationship with either our spouse or significant other things going on with our health. Personally, part of that, of the culture of the uniform I call is , um, always being strong. We tend to have a lot of our good friends who are in the job. That's understandable. But the other thing too is , uh, sometimes they can judge us and maybe not hold confidentiality and tell other , you know, accidentally intently. But as organizations we are very focused on helping the world, but we don't help the people in the building or in the squad cars, the fire trucks , the paramedic wagons and so forth. It's just teaching folks to look after us , uh, so we can get through the career and get, get healthy sooner when we do get sick.

Absolutely. That's something , uh, me and Caleb talked about before, is that there's that aspect that as your job as a first responder, you take care of everyone before yourself, essentially it feels like, and maybe, maybe the case sometimes where you're so dedicated to your job that eventually all that starts to build up. With that being said, why do you think, in your opinion, peer support is so effective? And also why is it so important for organizations to possibly get some, a program like a peer support going in their department?

So to answer the first question, why peer support? It saves lives, it saves marriages, it keeps families together. It helps us manage the career that can be very impactful in , in so many ways, both health-wise, psychologically in our relationship with. The other piece from a leadership standpoint is we always talk about when we sw pre go in , you know, after academy graduation or, you know, we hire them and , and a badge on 'em is , we say, welcome to the family and , uh, but do we act like a family , uh, after that ceremony, building a system of care , we're care oriented externally to our communities, but are we care oriented to the folks doing the job? From a leadership standpoint, if we wanna say we're leaders, it also means we have to care for the folks who are doing the difficult mission. And if we're not ready to do that, then we're really not leaders, we're just managers. And I never wanted to be a manager. I worked for too many managers, good people, nice people, but when it came down to saying, Hey, we need to help these people. Well , why would we do that? And I just thought, you, you broke the covenant. Now covenant is a moral contract between you and the organization. Part A of the moral contract says , we need you to go do these dangerous things sometimes. And you say, yes, I'll do 'em . And part B, part of the contract says , and if you get hurt as an organization, we'll take care of you . So there's sometimes that doesn't happen. We don't take care of our people that we hurt. And um, we need to change that. Especially now in today's world with people, it's hard to recruit people into the profession. And this is fire service and , and e m s service too. It's not just law enforcement across the country. And then the other piece of that is to retain people. Um, 'cause why would you invest all that time and and effort and you know, resources into train up someone to be, you know, talented professional and then just let 'em walk away because you didn't do some simple things. And these aren't hard things, but they're, they're things that need to be done to keep the , um, the moral covenant .

Absolutely. I think there's a definitely a big leadership aspect and something that just stuck out to me when you said that after graduation, you know, they tell you, you know, we're a big family here, but then afterwards they're all, sometimes there is that feeling of it's like, okay, well we got you in the door now we just need you to go do your job. But, you know, even if it's affecting you in a negative light, well , sorry, that's just part of it. Sometimes you hear , uh, the term I know they used to use when I was in law enforcement of embrace the suck . You know, well, you just gotta embrace the suck. Well, you know, yeah, when you're getting pepper sprayed in the academy, you have to embrace it or you're being tased or, you know, you're in a tough situation. But does that, that doesn't necessarily when you have, when you're struggling mentally with something, that doesn't mean you just need to embrace it and just move on. You know, I think that's , uh, when you graduate, you definitely do feel like you are kind of left to the wolves a little bit after , right after you graduate. It's like, okay, well now you're, now you're free to go. Or peer support. Who benefits from it? The, the person that's getting the peer support, the or the peer or both of them getting benefits out of it. And when I say benefits, not , um, monetary benefits, but are there emotional benefits, therapeutic benefits for both people?

Do you know, from the person receiving and I've been in both roles, the person receiving the peer support , um, assistance and then also the person delivering it is from, you know, again, the culture of the uniform says always be strong even when you're weak and hurting and don't show anybody you're weak and hurting. And at times even high debt , um, that from our families. 'cause you know, we take some of that culture uniform home too and try to apply it in that setting from acting, you know, working as a peer, the benefit is you're not gonna get a medal. But I'll tell you what, there, there are times where you look back in your career and go, did I make a difference? And the other piece of that is, did I make a difference in somebody I work around and , um, to be able to see someone, help someone turn it around, save their career, save their marriage, save their family, or , you know, that that's my, that's my paycheck. Um, in so many ways. Um, I can put my head down on a pillow at night with a smile, even though I'm tired and worn out, sometimes grumpy as I put my head down, I go, we did good today. We did good.

Yeah, absolutely. And I, and I think, you know, you make , you make a great point there is that there, there are benefits to that, you know, when you're able to help someone in need, especially another person that's a first responder, whether it's say their marriage , uh, drinking problems, substance abuse issue is that, you know, it does feel good. I'm sure it feels great to be able to say, you know what? You're helping in your community, you're helping in your department to also make your department better. Because any first responder, no , no matter what capacity you're in, the best way you're gonna succeed at your job is being at your peak mental performance. You know, having that mental resiliency but also having it where you're working through those issues, you're working through the problems that are arising in your life. Because everyone can relate that. If you have a bad, if you have an argument with your wife before you go to work and then you go to work, sometimes that could absolutely affect how your shift is gonna go because you're thinking of it in your head. And especially if it's something that's a bigger issue that arose the day before and you're really not talking about it, all those things bottle up and eventually snap. And I think that's maybe where you see some of that poor retention rates of you . It's hard to keep people in this job as it is, but then you throw on the mental health aspect of the things you see, the things you're gonna go through, that's where it gets, it gets really tricky. So that, I completely agree. I think that is a great way you put it. Let's say for someone who is the peer and someone who's getting the peer support, it sounds like the overall benefits are not only just getting 'em , getting that stuff off your chest, but it's kind of just someone that you can talk to in confidence in having, in having that person that you can go to. Correct.

Yeah. You know, it's, it's two pieces and you bring up some good points there. It validates that I'm normal, that this is a hard career. There's times during that career in which you see or get involved in things that are , are very tough, you know, both physically, psychologically, but also having a place , um, where I can talk to someone who has some training and that I can trust. Trust is paramount for peer work. You know, there's three, three components of trust. Wherever you go in the world, people will judge you psychologically. They don't say this out loud that the brain naturally does. This is , you know, what's your level of experience, what's your level of knowledge and what's your level of your intent to your heart? Are you here to help me or are you just here for some other personal reason? And that out of those three things, the knowledge, experience, and intent of the heart, intent of the heart is the most important. The other two are important, but are you truly here just to, you know, check on me

Now when you say education, what are some of the , you know, and that actually answers one of the questions I was gonna ask is, you know, what are some of the characteristics that you look for in a peer? So you look for like, that is great. That's actually something I've never heard before. Intent of the heart. Um, and that's definitely something I want to get into in a second. Let's say higher education. What is something that you guys are looking for, for what , uh, kind of education do you look for or that kind of makes more of a better fit for someone to be in peer support?

Yeah , we're looking for a couple things. I'd say that the two paramount things is do they have the ability to listen instead of give my opinion, you know, my advice. 'cause we've all gotten bad opinions, bad advice on stuff, and we don't go back to those folks. So what we train our peers is to help, you know, come up with some options both from the person who's seeking help and from the peer that's helping. Because options also, you know, they can change and they can be modified an option may be a certain option, may not be the right timing for it, but it's still a good option to be . The other piece of that is on the education is, so we provide in , you know, in our training with first responders, we provide a three day basic peer support course and we cover a lot of things in there around active listening skills. What is a critical incident, the reactions to critical instance, the impact of sub substance abuse signs and symptoms. We also teach , um, the students how to major lethality and that can be either suicide or looking at hurting somebody else. Rarely does a first responder hurt somebody else. I mean that is just so far out , um, the possibility. But we tend to internalize and we internalize towards, you know , uh, hurting ourselves. The other thing too is we don't realize in the course of our career, we see a lot of death. So it just kind of becomes a commonplace for us in our profession. And if you around death a lot, you may start to think about that as a , as a solution for some of the tough times we may get into. So we teach 'em about scaling for lethality. Um, we also talked , uh, about family systems. How do we keep the family together? The United States military did a a study of why would a a soldier re-up, and this was during Iraq, Afghanistan early on they said, why would a United States military professional re-up in the military? And one of the top three reasons was family endorsed it. So that's why it's , it's not just , um, taking care of the , the pierce , the the person seeking the assistance, but it's also taking care of their family . We bring a lot of stuff home to our families, undeserving, but we, we, you know, it does creep in sometimes during our career is how do we keep the family strong and healthy? And that's really been one of our, our agendas for the last two years is building out the family system , um, of the first responder , um, profession. Does that help?

Yeah, a absolutely. I think that's a , you raised a great point talking about, you know, having that support from your family, family because you know, sometimes being in a first responder role, you may feel like you're alone in the battle. There's a lot of problems that can arise from stuff that can destroy families and marriages. Why first responders, there's such a high divorce rate is that there's so much stress in the job. There's so many different aspects and different problems that could come up in a marriage that it's just hard to get out in the open and also hard to work through. Um, and I think that's what the great thing about having a peer support someone that you can talk to is 'cause there's someone that to kind of bounce that off of them . For you, Jim, as a, as a former leader, how did you approach peer support?

When I would look at going into an organization or assignment, I'd look at what systems of care already in place or not in place to cities in which I went to, to work in , in a leadership role is they didn't have peer support programs. So that was one of my, you know, year one agenda items is , um, building out, creating a peer support team and selecting a peer coordinator, you know, and lining up the , um, the training and so forth. And , um, it , it just makes a difference in the workforce, the morality organization . The other thing too is , um, at times suicide is epidemic in our profession is how do , I've lost now seven of my colleagues over the years to suicide in different agencies. And , um, it just gut wrenching. The sad thing is also teaches our kids, when life gets tough, think about taking your life. It, it acts like it's a , a dropping a stone in a pond and watching that ripple effect. Just go through the whole family system, building out the family. You know, what sucks is when work sucks and the home sucks, where do you go? And um, so , um, and it modulates back and forth, so how do we keep the family stronger? We've been doing , um, several workshops now with spouses, significant others and they are so rewarding and , um, and you really see where that spouse, significant other, really loves their first responder and they want to help 'em , they just don't know how. And you know, and the other thing too is we don't really share a lot about the organization to our families or our spouse. I mean, we talk may say, I have a bad day and that's it, but we don't tell 'em, you know, how do I deal with my, my loved one when they come home and they have a bad day? So just giving them some simple skills, letting 'em know of resources available already in the organization can mean a lot to keeping a , a , um, a relationship together. The other thing too is sometimes I'm working for that little kid in the background that , um, is just seeing mom and dad going through a tough time is , um, if I can bring peace to that setting, it's gonna just make that little kid's life. Well , hold on .

Absolutely. And I , I think that is just incredible because I think there needs to be more stuff out there that focuses not only on the first responder but also the family. Because I think if you don't have that good work life balance of things at home are getting sorted out, that eventually comes into your work naturally just as it would anybody else? A question for you, Jim, would be what, what is something you would tell current leaders that are in these roles, whether they're ready or not to navigate peer sup going, trying to start a peer support program. What is a message you would give them or piece of advice you would give them to help them understand the effects of it and the positive effects it has? Um ,

You know, a couple things is a leadership track in, in first responder careers doesn't teach a whole lot of, how do I take care of folks when they get to crisis? We know how to do that on the street. We don't know how to do it in our buildings. So a lot of it is, you know, just teaching that skillset . The other thing too is the vast majority of 'em wanna do better. Um, but they haven't been, you know, trained into , you know, about what is peer support and what it is and what it's not. So they tend, and of course like anything, something we don't know we tend to shy away from unless you've had that, that person who went through a real tough time in their career and someone came alongside 'em and helped 'em out. I'm starting to see that grow more and more where there's more of this focus on, you know, we use that term wellness, which is more of an umbrella for a lot of services underneath that, like peer support , uh, culturally competent mental health professionals, chaplain family support services, these types of how do we educate the , you know, the bosses , uh, you know, there's a few people you run into and it's all about them. That's gonna be wherever you go in the world, whatever government business or corporate business. But the vast majority of folks want to do the right thing and want to help their workforce. The other thing too is that if a healthy workforce is a performing workforce and um, they're gonna do, they're gonna do much better when um, the organization is invested in them and more than just a paycheck and some benefits .

Do you feel too, it's also lead by example of, you know, sometimes there's a taboo behind, don't really talk about it depending on where, how you were raised or how they were brought up in field training or how they were taught in the academy or what have you. Do you feel like too being a leader is leading by example to say, look guys, whether , um, it's at the start of your shift and they come in and say, Hey, you know what, let's start talking about this. Getting this conversation on the table to start figuring out what some of those needs are. Because I feel like too , if you don't have the troops on board , it's gonna be a lot harder if you're not on board for them to get fired up about it. To say, yeah, you know what, this is something we should have. Do you also feel too that it's having that, having it that way where you lead by example, having that transparency, more of that open door policy to say, Hey look, you know, let's have an honest conversation here.

Yeah, you know, my wife , uh, taught me this term through her struggle. She spent 26 years on the street, you know, she was a road dog, a patrol officer, and then , uh, a patrol sergeant and then some other specialty assignments. But she loved work in the street. But you know, she, she learned this term , uh, in one of our leadership courses. Sometimes as a leader you have to lead with your vulnerability and I mean , stand up in front of folks and just saying, I've been through tough times too. Lemme tell you about one of those times and something that's, you know, is appropriate to share. I I have no problem standing up, you know, whatever rank I wasn't saying, Hey, I've been through tough times, I've been in shootings, I've seen kids die. Um, and, and you know, the real tough stuff and gone through tough times at home. So , um, none of us are , um, immune to it. So, you know, that's, that's use these services to keep us going 'cause we all want to perform well. We're all proud of, you know, our mission. The other part of that is , um, we wanna succeed. So I think sharing a little bit about the job is, is personally tough and you want to make it, you know, better for them. Uh , you know, the old school way in which some of us are brought up is just suck it up. Um, and all that, and what I saw the term suck it up , uh, ended up being was suck . Suck down a bottle of booze and then lose your family, lose your job, lose your life. If we're a profession, we're gonna , profession is always trying to evolve to , um, make, you know, our performance better, but also make our workforce better, stronger.

That's a great point you made is uh, is showing that vulnerability because I think especially as a leader, people may look to you and say, well , you know, he's always had it , they've always had it together. Where when in fact I think, you know, a lot of times, as you can attest, your wife can attest to, you know, you guys have gone through those experiences that whether it's a new recruit coming in, a new hire that you can say, Hey look, these are the things that I've gone through. I understand maybe not the exact situation, but I understand what it feels like to go through something like that. I think that's a excellent point you made. Now let's talk about peer support Central. What are some of your offerings you guys do? I know you've talked about some of the family resiliency. What are some other things you guys do with peer support Central?

So really what we do is we wanna either build out new peer support programs for the first responder community, fill out the family, the first responder family , um, support systems in there . We offer a three day basic peer support CL class. Now we have a niche market. We bring the training to the organization where a lot of trainers won't do that. They'll say, well , um, I live in this state, you have to come to me . So part of that is, you know , our services is we come to them . We also offer a one day peer support update course and slash advanced update. And we also now are providing those, those same trainings to first responder , uh, spouses, significant others. If they can learn some of this terminology, they can also be a peer support system to the other spouses, significant others. And but also have that knowledge on board to, you know, manage the home front as we say . Um , because the job's not getting easier, whether it's , uh, law enforcement, fire service or you know, paramedic service. It's just crazy. Uh, we were on the road for the last three months across the country, march through the first , uh, couple days of, of June all over the country . And it's, it's the same story. Big or small organizations, everybody is struggling. So here's, here's something that a firefighter came up to me on a break, Casper, Wyoming mixed first responder class, and he , he comes up on the break, he says, you know, COVID amplified what was already happened to us as a profession. We're already short staffed , we were already overworked, we're already tired, and covid pushed us over the edge. It amplified the existing, you know, struggles and weaknesses we had in our profession. And I thought that was pretty profound is, you know, 'cause we want to blame Covid for everything, but you know, they were, they were, we were at the tipping point before Covid came along and it just really pushed us over in so many ways. And then the riots of 2020 , um, and just the, you know, the political at , so part of the services again is, you know, the basic training, the update training and also focus on the families in regard. We also do consulting. So anybody who's been through our class, we do free consulting. I have two calls , uh, received overnight from , um, uh, two different fire departments saying, Hey , um, went through the training , uh, struggling with this one, you know, firefighter or firefighters, spouse and just wanna make sure we're going down the right path . So a lot of times they're doing the right thing. They, they just want that validation. And then we start talking about what will be the care plan for, you know, week two, week three, week four. So the consultant , we also will go in and , um, you know , conferences, we're doing a conference in San Diego in October and I'm just gonna talk about the trends we're seeing across the country for first responders. Uh, and this will be a peer support audience of folks who , who are trained peers because the nature of our work, we get to go across the country and survey across the country what's going on in the first responder community, but also the first responder home.

That is amazing. I mean obviously you've seen, you know, not only the last three months, but your entire career is the, the need for it. And it seems like every single day it just becomes more and more people out there are hurting and struggling and families losing mom and dad, whether it's it is to suicide or just mentally checked out of family life, you know, and I, I think that is just such a great way to go about it. Is that that's awesome that, so you guys can go to them, which is great. The question I have too is that if they're , let's say you have a fire department who says, well we have somewhat of a peer support program or a peer mentoring program. Do you also work with departments that have one but are just looking for something different that you could go in and help them kind of start build over again?

Yeah, actually, you know, with the peer support programs are in existence is half of 'em are going through some type of rebuilding. Uh, a lot of folks left during covid and then of course you have the baby boomers who are retiring out . You have new folks coming in, new generation coming in the workforce. We're getting a lot of calls about, hey, we have a program, we need two things or we need to train the new ones coming into the program. And the other thing too is we need to do some up training for the folks who are in the program. So we also do a peer support coordinators workshop twice a year. And in that is, you know, it's just coordinators or their number two comes with them and we just talk about what are some of the trends we're seeing and then what are some of the ideas that we're seeing across the country on building out the pro basically program, creating a new program and also the unique challenges that are going on in the profession. But one of those strategies that we're actually gonna start this summer, probably around that, that August timeframe is a 2030 minute , um, broadcast Zoom broadcast because we'll get calls saying, you know, we'd love to have you come, but we can't afford it because of our budgets, you know, so I got a call from a deputy sheriff's deputy in Nevada and , and another one in Missouri, and they said, you know , we really want the training, but we can't afford to come to you and we can't afford you to come here. We're a small agency, we don't have that much money. Do you have something that we could view online? So we're actually looking at doing , um, starting in August. It's just a 20, 30 minute zoom broadcast just talking about here's some, some peer support trends we're seeing strategies to use to that and then just have a , a five to 10 minute q and a , uh, on that. And folks really, so when we , we ask classes for the last 12 weeks, what do you wanna see? Is it very insightful? Is be the to the point we'd love to see that once a month and um, you know, we can't do, we're zoomed out, so make it 20 or 30 minutes. And I'm like, no, I get that part about being zoomed out, but you know, go to the point. We need this training. We'd love to have this information. The other thing too , what we do is we do the research of what's out there in the field around trauma care , psychologic, trauma care , and some of the , you know , uh, treatments are going on and just share that information with the workforce because they don't have time to do that. So that's one of our strategies is , is to help out sharing new information.

That's a , a great tool and tip to have for people who, like you said, that possibly they , their agency can't afford it, that at least it still gives them some kind of peace to bring back and use out in their career. For a agency who reaches out and says, we , we want to do this, what does the process look like for them ?

Typically they'll call from the phone number on the website or they get the phone number through some type of web search or you know, some type of , um, you know, other source that comes in . Word of mouth is that we'll have that conversation on the phone , um, whether they're looking for the number of folks they want to train, how soon they wanna do that, and then we'll send 'em a proposal and it's as simple as that. And then they can work on , uh, if it's gonna work for them or not, and , um, go from there. So we , we keep it very simple, straightforward. Um, we rarely actually, a lot of people said, do we need a contract? We go, no. You know, the one thing about the first responder profession is they're pretty honest. Uh , they're not gonna say, yeah, we can do it. We can't, but we really don't need a contract. Uh , unless they want a contract, that's fine. But , you know , we keep it pretty , um, pretty simple for folks. Uh , the other thing too is the question I'll ask them when we talk is, are you calling because you have a new c e o who came into the organization or something bad happened and 95% of the time it's something bad happened, it didn't go well and we need to, we can't do that again. We need to fix it.

That's awesome. Yeah, it definitely sounds like a painless process of getting started. Jim, I can't, I can't thank you enough for taking the time out today. It , it's, it's something that, you know, we see time and time again that we'd love to see every single organization out in the United States and everywhere have some kind of peer support program because I think the benefits just some that we were talking about are, are just so monumental in keeping a first responder healthy, mentally healthy, physically healthy, and keeping those families together. I, I can't thank you enough for coming on here. And again, that's Jim Hyde with Peer Support Central and we'd love to have you on again. Alright,

Well thank you very much Jason and , um, let's just try to keep everybody healthy.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Jim Hyde, everyone, thank you for listening to another episode of Breaking the Stigma podcast to everyone be safe.

This concludes this episode of Breaking the Stigma with McNeil and Company. If you are someone you love, needs to speak to someone immediately, please reach out to the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-662-FOUR 3 5 7. We look forward to you joining us for future episodes of breaking the Stigma, be well and go safely.