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Welcome

To the Breaking the Stigma Podcast with McNeal and Company. The mission of this podcast is to offer education and resources for first responders, wellness, mental health, and resiliency. The host of this podcast are not mental health professionals, but all information shared will be in conjunction with either a certified training or mental health expert. We are here to break the stigma around mental health discussion. That being said, some of our topics may be triggering or upsetting to our listeners. If at any time you are overwhelmed, we encourage you to pause the podcast or forward to the end where we will list the hotline. You can call for immediate help and conversation with a professional. Please be safe and gentle with yourself. We need you here, and we want to help.

All right . Good afternoon everyone. I am Kayla Lyon here with McNeil and Company Breaking the Stigma podcast. Today I have two special guests with us. One is Dave Dennison . You may have heard from him before. He does work here at McNeil with me. And then I do also have Scott Gail Hart on the line with us. Today we're gonna be really diving into some specifics around breaking the stigma and mental health for first responders from a first responder who had his own struggles and battles throughout his career. And now this is his life's work, so I'm gonna allow both of them to introduce themselves. Dave, if you'd like to go first to introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about your history of fire and e m s.

Absolutely, Kayla , thanks for having us. It's, it's great to be here. Uh, I am Dave Denniston , director of Risk Management here with McNeil and Company, and 32 years, I guess it is now, in fire and e m s services. Started as a firefighter, worked my way up through the ranks, became chief of the organization. I certainly serve as a fire commissioner in the Virgil Fire District. Uh, and I've been here with McNeil and Company now for a little over 15 years working with , uh, fire and ambulance agencies across the country.

Great. Thank you. And Scott, if you'd like to give us a little background on who you are and what you do in fire and e m s as well.

Yeah . Um, I'm Scott Geisel . Um, originally from Detroit Lakes, Minnesota, but , uh, was a firefighter at Frazee, Minnesota for 24 years. Um, like Dave, I moved up to the ranks up to captain and uh, I only made it up to assistant chief. Um , I was next in line for chief position before , um, the crisis hit in my life where I realized I had P T S D, I'm a P T S D , suicide and meth survivor. Um , also had cancer and the cardiac issue . And in fact, I had all of 'em , all of them within three months. So it was kind of pretty wild, wild ride I went through. Yeah . I now have worked in mental health for four and a half years in mental health crisis stabilization, answering crisis calls and helping people make it through their own crisis. And , um, just lately I went full-time speaking nationwide speaking, I'm doing this full-time also.

That's really great, Scott. Thank you. Alright , so we're gonna start off with, I think the number one question that we've been asking with this series, which is, why is there still such a stigma for first responders to discuss and talk about mental health and wellness? Dave, do you wanna start this one off and then we'll jump it over to Scott?

Sure. I , I mean, when we, when we look at the subject and we look at, you know, everybody openly talks about line of duty deaths and everybody openly talks about some of the injuries that are, you know, involved in the service, but that's where most of the conversations end. I mean, we really don't have a lot of people that dive in. And when you start looking at the numbers and comparing the numbers of, you know, firefighter suicides , uh, firefighters that we know are struggling with P T S D and other issues, you know, it's just , it's one of those things that it hasn't been common talking. It hasn't been something that we've, you know, done a lot of work on. And I think, fortunately, we've got a lot more people that are opening up to the subject and a lot more people that are, are talking about the subject. And I , I met Scott several years ago and , you know, he was courageous enough to share his story. And it , it amazes me that every time someone does come forward , forward and share their story , um, you know, I, some things that I've struggled with and dealt with anytime that I've, you know , opened up and talked to people about that, you usually end up with two or three other people going, Hey, I'm glad we're talking about this because I've struggled with this. I've had this situation. I've, you know, I've , I've dealt with this. Um, and I didn't know if it was okay. I didn't know if I was okay and I felt like something was wrong with me. Scott, again, I , I can't thank you enough for what you've done both in fire and e m s services for, for openly sharing your story. And it is not easy to talk about for some people. But, you know, do you feel like there, there has been a stigma, there still is a stigma. Are we, are we getting better about the subject? Where do you think things stand at this point?

I think it's getting a lot better. I think what, what the big part is, is the education. People think mental health is that you're crazy schizophrenia and P T S D means that you're not able to do your job. And that , that just simply isn't true. It should be called an injury, not a disorder, because it's no different than breaking your arm, breaking your leg. You can go get therapy and go to physical therapy. You can get your legs fixed, your arms fixed, come back to be a good firefighter. And it's no different than your mind. I mean, your mind has an injury, it seen it seemed too much, or it's stuck in there. It's not that you're weak, it's just maybe you went to that call and you were overtired and it affected you different, or that they look just like your own kids. I mean, it's so, there's so many different ways that it can , can affect you. And it's upsetting to me that, you know , we , we call ourselves brothers and sisters and if a firefighter wants some help building a deck, we'll take all weekend to go over there and drink some beer and build a deck. Or if they break their leg, we'll put a ramp on their deck. But as soon as somebody says, Hey, I'm having suicidal thoughts, or, I, I think I've got P T S D , I'm gonna go see my therapist. It scares people. 'cause they're not, they don't, they don't know how to respond to that. And we've gotta teach people better that it's okay. And what better act of kindness can you do for your brother or sister is when they're in that place, when they're having difficulties thinking and different difficulties operating to take three hours and go to therapy with them , drive 'em to therapy, sit and wait for 'em when they're done, go for lunch with 'em , be there for 'em. You don't have to have the answers. And we're still the same person. You know, you can still talk about the , have the same discussions about fire scenes and everything else. It's just, you know, their mind is a little confused right now. And that they just need some assistance getting their backpack cleaned out basically, and get a clean slate. When I came back to the fire service, man, I was, I was thinking so much clearer. I didn't have any anger. I could just respond better without panicking or freaking out and yelling at people.

Scott, you know, I, I always wonder, I go, is it because people are uncomfortable about it? Because they really don't know what to say because they, you know, we haven't talked about it enough. You know, I had a gentleman share with me had two major traumatic losses , uh, in his family. And the first one was from cancer and the second one was a suicide. And he said, you know, after the cancer death, everybody reached out and they brought food and they were calling him and What can we do for you ? And all these type of things. And he had been through that process, you know, at that point. So he was actually, he goes, you know, if you ever could be in a good place, I was in a good place and I was ready for that. He said, and , you know, all these people reached out. And that was , that was really great. He said, but then when the suicide happened, he goes, it was like crickets. And, and nobody called me and nobody. And he goes, that's when I really needed the help. And, and I really needed someone, you know, I needed to talk to somebody 'cause I didn't understand what was going on. And we didn't, you know, have indications that this was gonna occur. And in those conversations we had those same questions. I said, you know, why didn't people reach out? And , you know, so he says, you know, I, I felt like maybe people thought there was something wrong with me, or there was something wrong with the way that this death had occurred versus the other one. And you know, as we talk through this, I don't think that's got anything to do with it. I think people are uncomfortable and they, they don't know what to say and they don't know what to do. Even, you know, when there's any kinda loss, we never, you know, I don't know what to say to somebody when they lose a spouse or, or lose a relative. It's, it's always awkward. You go to calling hours or a funeral and it's always , you know, it's like, what do you say, you know, that person was a really great person or this, that, or the other thing. Or boy, they're in a better place now. All of those conversations are awkward. But I think when we get into, you know, the issues of mental health and, and some of those things that are surround it people, they're, they're even more concerned that I don't know what to say or what to do. Is that kind of how you feel? You know, some people react as well. When we start talking about the subjects,

I , I kind of relate it back to cancer. Back in the fifties, sixties, seventies, nobody wanted to talk about it. They didn't know enough about it, and they thought it was something that they could catch. You know, when I went and told my, the firefighters that I'm gonna have to take a leave of absence. 'cause I, I had been having suicidal thoughts and I tried to commit suicide and I got P T S D and everybody got really quiet. I mean, I , I started to talk about the elephant in the room that everybody's been trying to sweep under the rug. You know, we're trying to be macho strong first responders, and that's something that we have to do, especially with law enforcement. That's a , that's what's expected of us. But it's okay to, you know, show some, I don't know what you'd call it, just be that brother and sister that you would be, if somebody's building a deck, I mean, you're supposed to be there for each other. You wouldn't let somebody go down and call a me and a fire not going after 'em . I mean, if somebody's going through a mental health, P T S D , something like that, they need you more than ever. You know , I asked my, I asked the firefighters, you know, just, I'm the same guy, you know, I want to go hunting, I wanna go fishing. I want to , you know, just don't leave me alone because I , I can't be alone. 'cause if I'm alone, that's when my thoughts are gonna catch up to me. And not to blame anybody, but it scared 'em , you know, they didn't know what to say. And I think some of 'em , it maybe hit a little too close to home too.

You bring up some very valid points there. And some numbers that I've seen recently and some conversations that I've started to have with some folks, we start talking about the , the suicide rate. Once people leave the service, once they retire, once they get out of the department. And even though that support network that was there might not have been great, it was better than all of a sudden you're, you're even more alone. You know, in my mind, that really validates, if you will, the need that people have, you know, in whatever form that looks like. And however comfortable. And, you know, hopefully at some point in time we get to the point where people are more comfortable talking about it. You just, you know, you said the expectations. And I think there is an expectation out there that if I, if I signed up for this gig, I'm gonna see stuff that nobody should ever see. I'm gonna , you know, witness and, and be part of things that no human probably should ever have to deal with in their life. And well , if I signed up for this, I, I signed up for that too. And I think that's some of what we gotta change and, and get people to understand is that we are human, however heroic we are, or the , you know, the job and the profession that we take on, we gotta re realize that we are human. And I think, you know, when you look at the military and the , the rates of P T S D in the military as well, that's some of the things they struggle with there as well as, well, you know, you signed up for this, none of us signed up for some of these things that we see. And hopefully people will come more appreciative, I guess, or more understanding or just realize that folks really need to talk to somebody or they really need some help. You know, as you look back on, on the days and the things that you went through, what are some things that people could have said that might have helped you or you wish somebody had reached out? You know, is there any specific examples of that that you can share with us? Well,

I think earlier they could have , the last two years before my suicide attempt, I did have the fire chief and police chief come out and talk with me . And I basically bs my way through it . I mean , I told 'em it's work . It's , it's everything else . It's a family . It's just , everything's piling on. I wasn't gonna tell 'em about the meth , you know, I had every excuse in the world to , to give them , and I was good at it. I mean, I could get my way out of any , and I was, I did have a lot of pressure on me, but, you know, the changes that were happening, I wish before that they got that bad. I mean , when I went from a assistant chief down to a captain down to a yellow helmet, down to not making meetings, I mean, there should have been some really red flags earlier, you know, because I loved the fire department and all of a sudden I stopped doing things. And even if I was that busy at work, they should have came over maybe and said, Hey, you know, let's take, let's take a break from work. It's not just the fire service, it's, it's outside. It's your family life. It's an all, I mean, if a divorce was happening, bad relationships, my ex-girlfriend was going around talking to the firefighters and their significant others saying, Hey, Scott's changed. He's yelling at us at home. And nobody believed him . I mean, nobody, nobody thought that I would be that kind of a person. That'd be that mean. Just a little bit of more awareness. But there again, it goes into the mental health part where we're not trained on what to look for.

And Scott, do you think there's a level of, we talk about this a little bit in our trainings, a level of that code of silence that happens in the fire department that's like, well, whatever he is going through, that's his business, not ours. Do you feel like that is still maybe part of why nobody really opened their mouth? 'cause it's like, well, what's happening at home really isn't our problem.

Yeah . That we wanna protect 'em and cover it up thinking it's gonna go away on so on . It's not, it's just gonna get worse. So, I mean, there needs to be some kind of intervention and they have a firefighter starting to act out when they used to love it. I mean, it's just gotta be that sit down and say, Hey, you know what's going on? And you can talk to 'em openly, but it's gotta be the right person. It's gotta be a good peer that can make that connection. That's not gonna be judgemental . That probably doesn't hold a high position in the fire station, you know, that is gonna , I don't want the firefighter to think they're being judged or if they say something that's gonna be held against them . And it happens too often where they come reaching out for help and they get shut down and that brings up another deal. I heard I was , I was at a training a while back and, and some , uh, firefighters got done with another training and they , they said they were taught that if a firefighter comes up to 'em and starts saying that they're suicidal or they're having suicidal thoughts or they, you know, they need some help, that they , that the person talking to 'em must remind them that they're a mandated reporter. Not agree with that. I mean , you're basically slamming the door on 'em if you don't feel like you're the one that should be, they should be talking to hang tight with them, get 'em to somebody they can talk to, get 'em somebody to trust. Ask 'em who they'd rather talk to 'em. Just basically say, Hey, I'm not really comfortable and I don't, I'm not familiar with this subject enough to be able to give you the support you need, but I'm gonna stick with you until we can find somebody to say, Hey, I'm a mandated reporter. They already know that you're , you're just basically saying, Hey, I don't want to hear this. You ,

You brought up two really important things, Scott, that I don't wanna lose sight of here. And you talk about the intervention, and then you also talked about the need for it to be early because by the, you know, it gets to a point where all of a sudden, you know, maybe we, we are using drugs or we're, you know, overusing alcohol and those type of things. And you know, at that point, like you said, you , you're covering for yourself at that point. And so you , you can open up and be free. So, you know, I think that that early recognition, the early intervention, the early help, the reaching out and, and being a friend and, you know, not get to that point where somebody thinks that, geez , I can't talk to folks because they're gonna have to report me. Also bring some questions up, you know, as far as how that all works with rank. So, am I better off if, if got some things that I want to talk to, you know, do I go to a chief? Do I go to a captain? Do I start with one of my peers? If I'm gonna be the one that reaches out because I'm feeling, you know, some things that I don't think are normal. Who who do you recommend that people try to start with and where did you find some help or comfort along the way?

I think it's somebody you're gonna have to be able to trust. And that's somebody that's probably gonna be talking about mental health, you know, and that's where I believe leaders are the strongest as they lead by example. And if they can talk about their own experiences and be open about that, show that it's not a weakness and say, Hey, you know, that last accident, man, that I'm still kind of , my mind's scrambled. I can't stop thinking about it. It's been three days. I'm gonna go, I'm , I just want you guys to know that I went to the therapist the other day, whatever, you know, it's okay to share that stuff. It doesn't mean you're crazy. It means you're taking care of yourself and it's self-care is, you know, another big part of it is, you know, share what you're doing for self-care. You know , we, we too many times always run to the bar or run drinking. We can do picnics, we can do go fishing with we , I'm not against beer by no means, but <laugh> , it doesn't have to be surrounded by a bar scene all the time.

Big difference between relaxation and, and you know, blowing off some steam and having a good time and using it as a crotch and a tool. And I think that's, you know, people need to understand and realize that. And we need to learn to , to watch our buddies. And you know, you brought up the perfect example that, you know, people were saying, Hey, there's some changes here. This isn't the Scott that I used to know, or the Scott that used to be here. It's recognizing some of those changes and then being able to talk to somebody about it and when, you know, when somebody else notices those things. So I notice somebody else in the department that I think may be struggling a little bit, you know, I think it's common for us to say, Hey, hey buddy, are you okay? You know what , what's that answer always gonna be? Yeah, I'm fine. It's not, you can't do it in a way that's gonna let somebody off the hook, but you've gotta say, Hey, hey Scott, I've, I've noticed, or I think, or I see, or, you know, I feel, or, or one of those type things. And you can't ask 'em yes or no questions. You've gotta point out some, you know, some things that you're noticing and and catching. How important do you think that is for folks to, to understand what to ask and what to do when they witness somebody else, you know, struggling a little bit.

Yeah, definitely. And that's, that brings up another point, asking them if they're thinking about committing suicide or if they're thinking about hurting themselves. Don't be around the bush. You can ask the direct question. If nothing else, they're gonna know that you're safe to talk to . And it's okay to talk about that 'cause you're talking about it. And later down the line, they might come to you back to talk to you. Another resource that we're not using enough is the retired first responders. Once they're done with, done with the fire service, it shouldn't be just a slam door and they're gone. We can bring them back as peers. What, what a better peer than a retired firefighter. They can come back and they can talk about this stuff without getting reprimanded or being looked down as weak because hey, they've done their career already. And what firefighter doesn't want to talk to a retired firefighter and shoot over bad, bad scenes and different scenes and, you know, just kind of chitchat about everything and it's a resource that we're not using enough of. And that would help a lot of the retirees, I think, you know, continue to be part of the fire service and be a very important part of the fire service using 'em for peers. And ,

And I think that's true for both the career and the volunteer service. You know, it so many times in the volunteer service, we kinda run somebody up through the ranks and then they get themselves into that chief's position, all of a sudden they're not chief anymore. And a lot of departments just kind of put 'em out to pasture, you know, and , and , and bring on the next people. But when you look at their ability to mentor, their ability to share, you know, I was in a room full of firefighters last night doing a presentation, and then somebody brought up the number of years of expertise that we had sitting out there in front of us. I asked one of the questions about, you know, how many people in this room were , were , were chief and you know, a number of 'em raised their hands. And we , we got into the discussions on how being chief was not what we expected it to . It wasn't the strategy and tactics anymore. Now it was everything else that you were dealing with and you just didn't understand that, you know, all of them felt like once they, you know, removed themselves from that position and put somebody else in that position that they still, the expertise didn't go away and the ability still didn't go away. And, you know, some of them were aging to the point where they couldn't drag a hose line down a hallway anymore, but that's okay. You know, they're , but you, you bring up a great point. How do we use those people? We look at those statistics and the numbers where all of a sudden those people start having trouble after they walked away. There's a way to keep them connected. So now we're staying, you know, part of their life. They're being able to share some of that expertise and everything else. So I , mentoring is one of those things that we, we never do enough of or we never take, you know, mentoring programs as seriously as we should. And maybe that's a place where we could bring some more folks back in.

I never thought I'd miss , uh, hose testing, you know, and I drive by and the guys are out there hose testing and it's like , oh man, I want to , I wanna get out of the vehicle, go over there and help 'em do the hose testing, wash some trucks. And you know, it's stuff that you didn't really look forward to when you're on the fire department, but you miss it when you're done.

You know, you get a day when the sun's out there and it looks kind of nice and you're like, yeah, I'd love to be doing that right now, <laugh> , but at the time you , you hated it. So, you know, that's just another, another place that we could have used them. So when you look back on some of the things that you've dealt with and , and struggled with and is there, can you think of any certain points where you, you can say, man, I wish that person had said something, or that person had reached out or that person had, you know, helped me through some of this? Yeah,

There was a scene, I guess I don't remember it , but some of the firefighters, we went out on a car accident and, and I was first on scene and, and I don't remember all the details, but I, I apparently I told the firefighters, the one first firefighter came outta the truck. I said, you guys can stay back here. You don't need to see this. I'll take care of it. I'm already damaged. And after I went through it , I went through my therapy, he came and talked to me and said, man, I should have seen something. It's like, but you know, he was lower ranking , he was a firefighter. He goes, you know, how do you approach an assistant chief and say, man, what did you mean by that? And I've heard a lot of comments similar to that from other firefighters that I should have picked up on. And again, I didn't know nothing about mental health. I didn't even know what P T S D was or even how to say 'em in order, how to say the letter's in order, much less anything about mental health. So I think we just gotta educate and talk more about it . I mean, we're losing more firefighters to, to mental health and suicide and the , uh, retention part of it. We're having 'em walk off the service because they say they see too much. Well, it's our duty to take care of them once we help them go through therapy and maybe they'll stay on the fire service. But as far as approaching them and things, we just have to watch for the red flags and we have to do more education. I mean , again, we're losing more to suicide than we are on fire. So, you know , where should the training be? I mean, it , it's not something that everybody likes to go through is mental health training. But, you know, the mental health training I've gone through, it's helped me in my , my life all the way around. I just come across people and I see the signs and it's amazing how many times just stopping and talking to somebody in public makes a difference in their life.

You mentioned those signs, and I think that's important. A lot of folks, especially if they're, they're listening with us right now, they, they have an interest in this topic and, you know, so either they're struggling or they wanna help those that are struggling. But as you mentioned the signs, what are some things that people, you know, should be looking for? If , if I've got somebody, you know, in my department or my organization or even a neighboring organization and what is it that should, you know, be a sign for me to say, I'm gonna , I'm gonna explore this a little further, I'm gonna , you know, go out and talk to this person and see what's what I can do to help.

Well , if their mood's changed, you know, if they're looking more fatigued, if they're not showing up on time for things, you know, maybe just dragging their feet on the fire ground and not being into it anymore. Giving away things, you know, if they start giving things away, that's a really, a really true sign that , you know, they might be just trying, thinking about checking out the darkness. They, they, for , for me, the color disappears from 'em. They just, their face is more plain and they, they're not as happy or smiley or even sometimes they're making jokes at everybody else and picking on people, you know, some of that changes in their, their mood where they're making fun of other people to keep the audience from looking at them.

You know, you , you bring up a a great point there. And I remember back in my career that there was somebody that, you know, we , we had a double fatal and, and we went in and recovered the bodies and the chief kind of selected who he thought was up to this task to go in and do that. And, you know, as , as part of that team with one other person who just was really making crew jokes and being vulgar about all those things that we do. And you know, as I look back on that, I go, that should have been assigned to me or everybody else at that point that, at the time I was thinking, man, how , how did this person get to be this tough? How did this person get to be so they can just accept that? And I, I think as you said, that it was really that person that was screaming for help at that point in time and nobody picked up on it or realized it. When we start looking at, and , and I know Scott, you, you tried a number of things. Some were successful and some weren't. As you, you know, started seeking some treatment. Can you tell us about some of those things that really worked for you and you think were life changers, you know, in , in your career and where you've headed? Yeah.

After I reached out for help and finally got somebody I could talk with , um, it was 18 phone calls and the final phone call, I finally found a first responder that understood what I was going through and he stuck with me and he got some other people I could talk with. It was just more or less, they just listened and understood where I was coming from. There was no judgment. They talked to me about P T S D, they helped give me some education about therapies. One was E M D R, eye movement desensitization reprocessing. And they even helped me , uh, find a location that did the E M D R got me the phone number. So I had to make the phone call, got it scheduled. And yeah, they just basically listened and calmed, calmed me down and, and let me know it was okay where I was at. That, you know, there's gonna be a future that it's not a life or death situation here. It's P T S D is something you can get therapy for and recover. Uh , another one was, I I , it was pretty wild. I was driving by the church one day and I wasn't really a member, but my girlfriend's church and , and , uh, my vehicle just kinda liked to do its own thing once in a while and it turned itself around and I was sitting in front of the church doors and I'm like , I don't know , I just walked into the church and asked to talk to the pastor and my gosh, his son was going through P T S D. And, and it was a , it was a life changer . I mean, I got my faith back and that between M D R and my faith and being able to see again, you know, once I went through the therapy and everything wasn't black and white and shady and shadows all the time. It was, it was colors again, just to be able to see the blue sky and the , the white clouds and trees and the birds and to hear things and came back to life kind of, I came out of the funk I was in, I also learned a lot of coping skills and worked on my patients and, you know, it , it's , it's not a free ride. It's , it's some work, but the first step was that therapy and getting, getting all that stuff outta my mind that was haunting me and my nightmares and, and just dealing with it, hitting it head on , you know, tackling my demons. So

So you brought it up and I'm , I'm gonna go down that road because you talked about seeing in colors again. And I can tell you when I've heard your story a number of times now, you're an artist with your words now and how you , I can see what you were seeing when that happened. I mean, you , you , you're so eloquent with the way that you talk about seeing those colors and the , the fine details of what was. And so you , you've talked about going from seeing everything in black and white to seeing everything in color. How did that happen to begin with? Was it slow and gradual that you started to lose a sense of color or, you know, one day did you even realize that I don't see things the way that I used to see,

I , I don't, I didn't realize, I think it happens over so much time that, you know, I knew, I knew it was changing 'cause I didn't feel like I loved anybody anymore and I didn't want anybody to be close to me. And I, I think that was part of the suicide and, and the isolation from P T S D was , I was pushing people away from me. My world became negative. I focused on the negatives. I didn't, I didn't see any success even as the lives we saved. I didn't really see any of those. I mean, I didn't count them , but I did count the fatalities and those are the accidents I remembered. Those are the scenes I remembered. That's what I, that's what I focused on. And when I focused on all that negativity, you know, that's, that's what I was living. And no matter what happened around me, it was, I was jinx, you know, it was bad karma, whatever you want to call it, you know, it just, it sucked me in and that's what I was focused on. I , I have an illustration I share once in while on Facebook where it shows a , a guy that's all bright and shining and, and he walks into a room and he gets around people and it just kind of goes out from there. The energy you give out. And that's what I was doing. I was giving out negative energy and nobody really wanted to be around me. You know, I'd be yelling at people, I'd be barking orders after I went through therapy, <laugh> , wow. My smile came back and I just lit up and I mean, I had people walking up to me and just, you know, giving me hugs and asking if they could touch me. It was just weird. You know, I, I never had that happen before , but I just came back to life and I loved it.

Okay, so now you called me out for asking for a hug and we got that all outta way . But <laugh> , when I heard your story the first time, it definitely had that impact on me. And I just, I think we made a connection there that, you know, I was like, Hey, I like this guy and I wanna be, you know, part of this guy and , and move that forward. And , and you talk about, you know, seeing in color and , and all those things and how your life has changed and moved forward. But I think there was some failures and some things that you tried to reach out or , or when you were looking for help in the , in the very beginning there, talk about those a little bit and how did you not get discouraged? How did you just not say, you know what, something must be wrong with me. I can't even find somebody that wants to talk to me or help me. And you know, you talked about all of a sudden you're getting angry and you're getting kind of bossy with people and you're pushing them when you need people the most, your personality's changing and you're actually pushing them away. So what are some things that didn't work out for you and how did you overcome that? Well ,

Um, after I guess the day of my suicide attempt, I can , I'll start with that a little bit. After the gun didn't go off and I found out a P T S D on a Google search and I started reaching out for help on hotlines. I called the suicide hotline 12 times. Nobody answered. And it was frustrating, you know, I'm sitting there with a gun next to me reaching out for help. I helped. I reached out to three other hotlines that were supposed to be there for us and they were all disconnected. Reached out to a police officer friend of mine and I told 'em I got P T S D, I tried to kill myself. I just, I need somebody to talk with and , and you know, he did what he was trained to do and he said, he is gonna come pick me up and take me to the hospital so I can get some help. And it's like , no , can't you just come over? I can talk with you and we can discuss some stuff. And, and as that wasn't his protocol. And then I called a therapist that we were supposed to call. And man , I tell you what, it , it was frustrating because I , I talked to her, told her I just tried to kill myself and she made an appointment for a week and a half out and I made the appointment knowing I was gonna be dead with my sunset 'cause there's no way I was gonna make it. And that's where I made that final phone call, call. I had a list in front of me and that was the last phone call on my list. And I remember looking at the gun thinking, oh , this is it. You know, less than a minute they're not gonna answer. In less than a minute I'm gonna be dead. So I'm gonna pull that gun up and start pulling the trigger till it goes off. Thank God they answered and, and he listened and he's the one that gave me some other phone numbers of some other first responders that they took all the time in the world I needed. It was just, you know, what price do you put on a life? And if it just takes an hour, two hours, three hours to just listen to somebody and be there for somebody that I don't know , that's pretty cheap if you ask me. I mean, that doesn't take a whole lot to do. Just be there for somebody. You don't have to give 'em advice. You don't have to tell 'em, you know exactly what they're feeling. Just listen, let 'em vent and let 'em know it's okay .

You mentioned a , a resource that I think is often overlooked and is , is pretty powerful for us as well. You know, you mentioned the day your truck turned around and you went back to the church and you started talking to the pastor and we, we have a lot of pastors in the fire service and maybe some people are, are reluctant to reach out to them because they're like, well I don't go , I don't even know when the last time I was, I went to church. So I , I can't go in there and ask this person for help or they're gonna try to cram their religion down my throat and, you know, beliefs that I may not have. They're , you know, all of a sudden we're gonna be in the middle of the Bible and all these things and I don't want any part of that. You know, what have what have you found about pastors that, that may be different than that and , and how they helped you ?

It , it was incredible 'cause he had no reason to stop what he was doing and invite me into his office . Um, we worked through a lot of things together and he, no judgment. I think he might've known, he might've seen the darkness kind of in me when I did go , go to church for events. You're not showing up to your kids' events. That's something that you normally should show up to. And he was understanding. He didn't judge me again. His son was going through P T S D from the service. There was a huge bonus. He understood P T S D a lot. And when I was going through therapy and seeing colors and having these feelings and emotions come back, and I mean, I I , I probably cried a gallon worth of tears some of the times I was in there. 'cause it's like, I don't deserve to be alive. I don't deserve to feel this good because I I wasn't that nice person. I look at all the stuff I did and it's like you talked to me about the forgiveness when I talked about this feeling I had my chest after I was going done with therapy and the piece , and it's like, I don't understand why I feel so at peace now and, and healthy and happy and I shouldn't, I mean, I , I changed so fast and, and when he told me about the Holy Spirit, I'm like, wow, you know, because I, I was brought up in the church and they talked about the Holy Spirit, but I didn't understand it until I felt it. It was something else he did. One day I came into the church and I said, you know, pastor, you must have like a closet full of crosses because I can't find a cross anywhere that I like. And I said, you probably have a closet full of crosses that people give to the church and I was wondering if I could buy one from you. And he goes, well, we can't sell any because they've been given to the church. And we were sitting there, we talked a little bit and , and he reached up on his wall and he grabbed the cross off the wall that was from Ireland that he got when it was in Ireland and handed it to me. And he said, you can have this one. And wow , it was , it was an amazing cross and he gave it to me and I , I took it home and a couple weeks later I'd found a few crosses and I put 'em up in my house and I , I brought it back to him and I mean, to reach up and take his own personal cross off his wall and give that to me so I could have a cross in my house. I mean, there's no words to that. I mean, who does that? That's, that's just such a, a personal statement, you know, here, here's one you can borrow from me. Little things like that, that means so much.

And I think, you know, that's again, that people don't appreciate sometimes what a , what a chaplain brings to the table. And you know, what, what they can do and it , whether you're part of their church or not part of their church, you know that I've never heard a chaplain that says, yeah, I'm , I'm not interested or I'm not gonna help you. They'll , they'll reach out and, you know, they'll , they'll take your hand and they'll guide you through the process. And I think that's, that's so important. We're glad that, that, that occurred and happened with you. We're glad that the , you know, E M D R worked for you and, you know, has gotten you to a better point. I'd like to talk a little bit about, you know, what you are doing now and you know, I I think like the , the courage you have is just blows my mind that, you know, you're willing to get up and, you know, be very frank about things that you dealt with. And I know some people, even though they've gotten help, it's like, okay, I, I was having a problem. I had that injury, now I've gotten better, so I'm just gonna shut it out and, and you know, not talk about it, but you've taken that in a whole nother direction where you're, you're opening up and I, I know of so many people that have opened up and shared because you did and were courageous enough to do so. Where , where do you go from here? What , you know, what do your plans moving forward? How , how do you feel like you can help folks as, as we move forward and start talking about the subject more?

Like I said earlier, I , I worked in mental health now crisis stabilization for four and a half years. So I learned a lot of , a lot of skills from that. I didn't get the education by going to school. I got it by actually experiencing and working with people. I have had P T s and P T S D schizophrenia and all sorts of different, different mental illnesses. And that helped me get the, the knowledge part of it, of the different, different , uh, diseases out there. But now I'm full-time speaking and I'm , I'm amazed at how many different cultures are opening up to me. Where I used to talk to BA basically , uh, first responders, now they're asking me to come into schools and talk to kids in school, you know, to , to prevent some of this stuff from , from getting further along than it needs to be. The importance of reaching out for help and , and it's okay to reach out for help. Yeah. And the retention part, you know , I'm really focusing on the retention part 'cause we are having a hard time filling the seats in the trucks and law enforcement's having a difficult time. So, you know, if we can make mental health commonplace in our fire stations, you know, that's, that's gonna keep our firefighters safe and and happy being where they're at. I'm in the works of writing a book. I, I've been really patient about it. I wanted to put one out there a long time ago and I haven't, I've been patient, I guess there's gonna be a lot coming out that I haven't talked about and I'm not gonna hold anything back. I mean, I think people have to know how wicked P T S D can get, you know, I know there's gonna be people out there that are gonna judge me for the things I was gonna do and things I thought thought about doing, but you know what, they've gotta know the inside world. And, and that's something you can't learn in the textbook. It's gotta be talked about. And you know, you hear about all these school shootings and all this other stuff and, and veterans that do that, well maybe it's 'cause they didn't get any help first and maybe the signs were there. And that's what we've gotta start focusing on. Quit blaming P T S D and quit blaming veterans and, and look deeper into it. You know , no , no healthy person goes out there and does these crimes being healthy. People don't go out there and hurt people. The divorce rates, the alcoholism, the addictions, it's a cry for help. And, and we've gotta take and hit that a little harder and focus on that. So, you know , I do a lot with couples and I do a lot on my own. I get a lot of phone calls still and a lot of messages and it blows my mind when I, I'm sitting there and all of a sudden I'll get a text from somebody saying, thank you. You saved my life. You know, if it wasn't for you, I'd have been dead. And I don't take that lightly at all. God put me in this place and I got a second chance in life and I'm not gonna waste it. I'm not gonna shut up about what , what I went through and , and I have no secrets. I mean, I'm , I'm not proud of the things I've done, but I wanna share as much as possible with people so they don't have to go through it. Or a loved one doesn't have to go through it. The suicide's permanent and it hurts. That's a lot of it too. I keep hearing about the suicides and there's a lot of work ahead of us.

Hey Scott, I have a question for you kind of on this realm of what you're doing and, and your mission in your life now. There's still a mental health crisis with medical professionals that are available, which may be part of the reason that you were having such a hard time finding a clinician or a therapist to actually sit down and talk to you. Do you have any thoughts around what that looks like or how to mediate that problem?

That's , that goes back to the prevention part. Talking earlier about it. I think we need more education even as , as much as far back as elementary school talk about what depression and anxiety is. I, I had no idea what it was. And, and I found out a lot of my clients when I give 'em , you know, worksheets on , uh, what is depression and what is anxiety and how does it affect your body? And all of a sudden they're like, well that's why my shoulders get all tight and I do this and I do that. And it's like, yeah, it's anxiety or depression and, you know, and then once they start recognizing that, then we can work on coping skills. Okay , that's how, let's see how we can relax. Let's see how we can redirect , um, and work on the anger. You know, it's not something that's easy to work on, but you know, we gotta give 'em a fighting chance and give 'em all the tools that we can give 'em . Again , the peers are huge. We have a shortage, we have a crisis going on in mental health right now and it doesn't seem like it's gonna get any better 'cause they're , they're still not putting the focus that , that they need to have on it. The politicians and the money should be put towards mental health and it's not, it would help with a lot of other problems. Like, like the addictions, like the homeless. We have a first responder that's struggling. I mean, look at , I lost my house, I lost my shop. That should have never happened. I mean, I didn't need much help, just somebody to help me get back in my feet. I wasn't asking for money. Just somebody to say , Hey, you know, we'll help you fill out these forms. We'll help you. It's time to sell a shop. Somebody could step in and hey, I'm gonna help you sell your shop. Where I just got totally taken advantage of by some people and they moved in and got greedy and took everything I had. You know , it was just little things like that that the peers can help with. You know, I think the peer program, I think we need that in every fire station. We need more peers. We talk to a lot of people that end up, they might go to therapy and some of 'em don't even go to therapy. We, we talk about things and, and we work things out just between us and just to help 'em get back on their feet. But I help a lot of people by just going to therapy with them and driving 'em to therapy and driving 'em home and going to dinner with 'em after or whatever. It's, it's the little things that really count .

So Scott, we, we've got a lot of people listening with us right now that either stumbled across this podcast or sought it out because they realize that, hey, I've got a problem in my department. I , I know that someone's struggling in my organization. Where do, where do they turn for help if we , if we've got people that are going, yeah, I , I realize this is an issue and I realize that this is something that needs more attention. What resources are out there for somebody to, to dive into this deeper and, and start to help?

I think the state chiefs associations are getting more involved with this. So that would probably be one of the first places I would check. Um, but make sure people are vetted. I've, I've heard so many times when people go out and either it's professionals that go out and they talk over the heads of everybody in the room and they use a language that we , we don't understand. So it's really important to get somebody that understands the, the fire service. Also, you know, I've , I've , I've seen people go out there and they'll go out and just talk about P T S D and how it's affected them and how it's ruined their life and, and they're still going through therapy and it's not working for 'em. It's like we need people to talk about post-traumatic success. Again, if somebody's going through therapy, they're probably not the same person that you want up on in front of your fire service talking about P T S D 'cause they're only gonna talk about the negative stuff and the downfalls of it and what, you know , what they're suffering through now. You know, they're just, I just know so many people that have got their lives back together much that'd love to have 'em come and join me on stage . That's just not their gig to see the, the marriages back together and the phone calls from, from the wives and the spouses. You know, maybe that's, maybe that's another approach is have the uh , significant others , you know, get together and start talking a little bit about more about it and sharing what they do for self-care. Get a program going where they set up a plan with their significant, there's a firefighters do, so if they have a bad call, it's okay to shoot a text to a significant others . They have bad , I had a bad call today so I'm gonna need a little time when I get home. You know, so you're not getting jumped about, Hey, the kids were doing this, the kids were doing that and uh , you gotta go empty the garbage and I just need a little time in the garage and then I'll come in and I'll share this with you. But the education part about that with the significant others, there's so much more out there now than there was in 2014.

That was amazing. Yep .

Yeah , a lot of it you can Google, but again, you know, do the background on who it is. 'cause there's a lot of people I see out there doing a lot of podcasts and stuff and it's kind of frustrating to me because I also see their Facebook page and every other day they're struggling with something different. Be healthy in order to do this. If you're not in a healthy place, you're not only hurting yourself, but you're hurting the other people. You're talking with.

That's really great advice, Scott. I think that that vetting is so important that make sure that person's in a good place to begin with and make sure they understand something about our industry. You know, it's mm-hmm <affirmative> , it's no different. You know, I've had fire departments come to us and say, you know, we , we tried to do this sexual harassment training and it didn't work. Nobody, nobody paid attention. Nobody was listening. They all thought it was a joke. And then you start asking the questions, well, who did it? Well, we hired this, you know, big law firm. Nothing against lawyers, but, you know, we hired a law firm that knows nothing about fire and e m s. Well, we need somebody that kind of understands who we are and what we do, and can talk our language. That's, you know, part of that vetting process as well. So really, really good advice there. It

Amazes me how many mental health professionals have called and reached out to me and asked if it was okay if they gave a phone number, my phone number out to somebody that they're working with. And when I ask them , it's , I go , is it a first responder? No, it's, you know, it's a professional lawyer, something like that. And I'm like, well, I don't have any background in that. And you know , the one that calls me a lot. She goes, yeah, but you understand the darkness, and I don't, you can talk about the darkness and you can talk about that part of it and get 'em to understand that it's not a dead end, it's own , not only just down, but you can go back up. I think that's really impressive that a professional would ask me to talk to somebody that's in , you know, and most of the time they're suicidal. So it's, it's just that matter of, you know, being able to talk to somebody that gets, gets the darkness and understands not only that part, but also moving forward from there.

Yeah, I think that's huge. I think it's really important to know your audience and how , and be relatable to them. Because I think mostly when dealing with first responders, they don't wanna just talk to someone who maybe has a fancy degree. You know, of course they're, they're qualified to talk to this person , but that first responder sitting there, that veteran is sitting there saying, yeah, but you didn't see what I saw. You've never seen what I saw. And clinicians, I think they wanna do that work, and it's important to them too, but it is very hard if they haven't stepped into those shoes to really be relatable to that person sitting in front of them. And then what's that person in front of them gonna do? They're gonna leave, they're gonna walk out, and they're not gonna come back because they feel like they weren't heard and they're not gonna get the help they need that way. Luckily, I think there's some programs coming out that are training clinicians a little bit more in this space, but it's like you said Scott earlier, that there's a lot of work to still be done.

So if , if there's one thing that you wanted to leave here with today, Scott, one thing that you really wanted to, you know, make sure people got out of the time that they've spent with us and , and listened to all this, what's the message? What , what's the thing you really want people to remember? When, when we get all said and done, the

Accident that put me over the top was an accident where the vehicle went upside down three feet of water . It was ice, cold water, it was dark. It was a young individual. He, he was underwater for 10 minutes. They recovered him. We got him shore, they got him his heart going, he was doing great. And a month later he died from the lung infection. And I told myself that I was the one that killed him because I was the one that grabbed him out of the vehicle and he drug drug us to shore. And I must've put something in his mouth. So that's the one that really did me in. But after a while , I , after I got my therapy and stuff, I got thinking about that and I got thinking about the three feet of water. And it was an SS u v and that there was probably an air pocket by his feet. The window in the back broke out, so it flooded the vehicle instantly, but there was probably an air pocket if he would've known where that air pocket was, he could have got to that air pocket if he even knew he was upside down, and he could have made it 10 minutes easy. So what I'm trying to tell people is that if you're in a situation where you're in that crisis, we're telling you where the air pocket is, reach out for help. Reach out to a therapist, get one you can trust, a firefighter, somebody you can trust and start talking with them. Don't let it go any further than it has to. The confusion's there, I know it's, you know, I've been there and I wish somebody would've told me what P T S D was, what the symptoms was, was that, that reaching out is okay and that a therapist can help. E M D R can help. Talking to your pastor can help, you know, so , so listen to what we're saying and look at the resources. 'cause it's out there and get your life back, you know, the , the relationship issues, the anger, possible addictions doesn't have to be like that. The nightmares will go away. You just gotta reach out and get some help and start seeing the color again.

Well, I really wanna thank you for your time today. A lot of powerful messages here. And I , and I don't think we can overstate, you know, the success that, you know, you're having, the courage that you have had and the things that you're doing for, for first responders. And, you know, we can't thank you enough for your time and , and what you're doing in that field.

Thank you very much Scott and Dave for spending some time with us today. As always, the outro of this podcast will give you some lifelines to call if you need any help. But of course, you can also reach out to us for any sort of resources that you can call if you do need help. Thank you again, Steve, and stop .

This concludes this episode of Breaking the Stigma with McNeil and Company. If you or someone you love needs to speak to someone immediately, please reach out to the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-662-FOUR 3 5 7. We look forward to you joining us for future episodes of breaking the Stigma, be well and go safely.