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Welcome to the Breaking the Stigma Podcast with McNeal and Company. The mission of this podcast is to offer education and resources for first responders, wellness, mental health, and resiliency. The hosts of this podcast are not mental health professionals, but all information shared will be in conjunction with either a certified training or mental health expert. We are here to break the stigma around mental health discussion. That being said, some of our topics may be triggering or upsetting to our listeners. If at any time you are overwhelmed, we encourage you to pause the podcast or forward to the end where we will list the hotline. You can call for immediate help and conversation with a professional. Please be safe and gentle with yourself. We need you here, and we want to help.

Alright ,

Well thank you for joining us for the Breaking the Stigma podcast. I'm Jason Salazar with McNeil and Company and joined by my co-host, Kayla. Today we have an awesome guest and , uh, someone that I've known for years now who is just a plethora of knowledge, and her resume is too long for me to even go through <laugh> . Uh, we have Dr. Nikki Johnson here. Uh, Nikki , thank you so much for being on the podcast with us. Um, this is a episode that I've been so excited to do. A little background. I used to work with Nikki in law enforcement. Nikki , do you want to give , uh, kind of your background and a little bit of what you do?

Sure. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Uh, like Jason said, my name's Dr. Nikki Johnson. I'm currently working as the Chief of Mental health Services for the Denver Sheriff Department, but just giving you a little background on myself, I've been a licensed psychologist since 2008 and a certified addiction specialist since 2010. I really started the behavioral health field focusing more on juveniles and trauma and substance use. Um, and I've spent the last 16 years really more in the correctional setting. So I've worked in jails and prisons with both juveniles and adults and, but focused a lot on, on kind of the restrictive housing population, those that are locked down for a significant number of hours. Um, also just really focusing on the seriously mentally ill. And of course, on trauma , um, we know that trauma kind of overlaps everything in this field, both in the criminal justice arena and also in the behavioral health arena. So it's always been something that has been important for me to, to focus on and really understand.

No, that, that is awesome. I , uh, when me and Kayla talked about this months ago, one of the biggest things we wanted to hit on, which this episode, talking about P T S D , uh, talking about some of the signs and symptoms, especially within a first responder too , uh, talking about vicarious trauma and stuff, we'll get into later, Nikki , we often hear the term P T S D, but are there certain characteristics that define it? Um, how is it also diagnosed?

Yeah, so really as a licensed psychologist or any licensed mental health professional can diagnose P T S D using the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual . And really what that outlines is having that exposure to actual or threatened death, serious injury or sexual violence. And that basically means that the person either directly experienced some kind of trauma where they felt like their life was threatened, or it could be witnessing an , an event. So maybe you were present when there was , uh, a suicide happening within a jail or something like that. Um, also learning about a traumatic event from a family or a friend. And then just recently with this addition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, they added the experience of hearing about aversive details of the traumatic event, which kind of overlaps with the vicarious trauma or secondary trauma piece, where even if you're exposed to hearing about trauma such as like 9 1 1 dispatchers, for example, they are taking those calls day in, day out and really hearing the behind the scenes on a lot of traumatic , uh, emergency type of situations. And that also can, can set the framework for someone to develop P T S D in addition. In addition, you're looking at symptoms, several different areas , uh, categories of symptoms. So you're looking at like intrusion where you're having those distressing memories or flashbacks or nightmares. Um, maybe you're avoiding situations that remind you of that trauma. Um, also just changes in your mood and your thinking. Um, a lot of times people can have more of those anger outbursts, having the depression, maybe even suicidal thoughts. And then also the anxiety piece where maybe you're more jumpy or hypervigilant. Um, it may be disruptive to your sleep and those sort of things. And I also just wanna add, it's really, it's an individualized experience. So with trauma, it matters what meaning that person puts to that trauma. So what may be traumatic for you may not be traumatic for me and vice versa. So it's really important to note that because just because two people had a similar experience doesn't mean that they're both going to develop P T S D .

You mentioned before, like an accident or seeing potentially, you know, seeing a death or something like that. But I was gonna ask, could it be something, I hate to say smaller because I don't wanna downplay anyone's trauma, but I was wondering, you know, is it specific, like, could you have P T SS D from something that may not be considered on a wide scale , traumatic to maybe a large population, but is to that specific person?

Yes, exactly. It's really specific to that person and, and the meaning they place behind that experience for them. Again, it's just really important to understand that what's traumatic for one person is not going to necessarily be traumatic for the next person. Um, and there's a lot of factors involved in that that we can kind of get into throughout this conversation. But there are individuals who may be more susceptible to developing P T S D , um, because of their past experiences or, you know, a lot of times it's more of a , an accumulation of different traumatic events throughout one's life. Um, that ends up being not even necessarily a P T S D diagnosis , but more of just that chronic severe trauma in general that kind of shapes that person's , uh, perspective and, and different symptoms they may experience.

That's really interesting because especially when you say that it, different things can affect people in different ways. You know, first responders see terrifying things all the time. And some people , uh, like you said, can have one thing that doesn't bother 'em at all, but then there could be that one trigger that , uh, you know , maybe it reminded them of someone. The other thing is how, are there any other kind of disorders that may come out first before you see P T S D ? Is there anything, whether you start seeing a little more symptoms or you see certain type of behaviors, you know, disassociating from friends, family, what does that kinda look like?

Yeah, I mean, there's several different disorders. A lot of times when someone experienced some kind of trauma, they may experience more of an acute stress disorder , um, which usually persists anywhere from three days to a month. So in order to get P T S D , you're looking at that those symptoms have progressed past that month time period , um, and are continuing to cause disruption in that person's day-to-day life and day-to-day mood. Also, law enforcement in general, basically there's a 50% increase for individuals in the field of law enforcement to have diagnoses like major depressive disorder , um, and also the suicidal behavior or suicidal thoughts that can even be either be with the depression or separate. Um, in addition, we're looking at a lot of substance abuse disorders. So even going back to the, the 1970s when they started tracking this in law enforcement, one in four individuals , uh, in law enforcement , um, first responders had alcohol abuse issues. So that's something to also consider. When you have trauma, you're often turning to things like alcohol , um, or like other substances to kind of numb those symptoms. You know, a lot of P T S D is more of an anxiety disorder, and so in order to kind of calm down , um, from being in that alert state all the time, a lot of folks will turn more to alcohol or other depressants to calm themselves down.

And , and that's the, unfortunately, the sad truth of, like you said, with the amount of first responders that turned alcohol turned to drugs, that it, it numbs it. And I'm sure you can attest that it's like, it's like putting on a , a bandaid on something that needs sutures essentially, of saying, well, you know, this'll, this'll help for now. But essentially, I mean, doesn't that eventually you just keep suppressing those emotions. You keep suppressing the things that you should be talking about and also working through. Can that, in a question I had, can, is that something that can also almost like a , like an explosion come out all of a sudden because you have all that built up that you're suppressing it with alcohol? Does that eventually come out essentially?

Yeah, I mean, really there's such thing as, it's called like this amygdala hijack where, you know, the amygdala is the part of our brain that stores that trauma. It's that part of our brain that functions from the fight or flight or freeze mode. So the more that we're in functioning more from that survival type of fight or flight mode, the more often we're to go into that amygdala hijack where we're instantly kind of snapping , um, in situations that normally wouldn't necessarily be that big of deal. But because we don't really have that balance between our sympathetic and our parasympathetic nervous system, we're fun functioning more , um, in that constant cortisol adrenal kind of adrenaline mode all the time. And that definitely ends up where people just snap and make, you know, poor decisions. They're not necessarily using their, their frontal lobe or their frontal cortex because all of their energy is going more into that fight or flight mode.

Interesting. That , that, that's actually , uh, something even I didn't know that I, I didn't understand because there was such a, a physiological aspect to it, to P T S D . There's, there's so many different aspects, and I think , uh, especially when you get into that kind of job, they don't really tell you about that. You don't really talk about P T S D a lot, you know, a lot of agencies don't, may not look at it , um, because even they might not know. Another question , uh, is , is P T S D reversible, is there a way to essentially, you know, you get diagnosed with P T S D, is there a way or is that something that's always with you, but it's just more manageable?

Yeah. And also Nikki , can you avoid it? I'll add that kind of , that kind of nugget too. Like can you avoid it and can you reverse it if you don't avoid it?

Yeah. For the first part, like , or kind of for your question, Kayla , um, like I said previously, there are kind of those risk factors involved. So for individuals who may be , um, were raised in poverty or exposed to childhood adversity and trauma , um, they're going to be more prone to developing severe trauma or P T S D. Um, also looking at those protective factors. So are there people in your life, do you have that social support to lean on , uh, when things get hard? That's definitely a huge protective factor when it comes to trauma. Uh, in addition, really looking at the severity of the trauma , um, and the length of time. Was it a one time situation or was it ongoing? Like with law enforcement, it's often ongoing. Um, it's day to day , depending, especially if you're out on patrol, you're experiencing pretty life threatening situations day to day , and then you're kind of expected to just shut it all off and go about your regular life without necessarily acknowledging what you just went through in a day-to-day type of experience. Um, and in regards to your question, Jason, is it reversible? So depending on the treatment that you take , um, oftentimes we're , we're looking at like cognitive behavioral therapy , um, maybe in addition to some kind of medication , uh, to address either the mood symptoms or the anxiety symptoms. Um, and there is a lot of healing that can be done within the brain just by doing that therapy and by being on medications. Um, it doesn't mean that you wouldn't be necessarily susceptible to experiencing some of those symptoms again, but it is something that you can heal from. But depending on the level of trauma, it's really gonna depend on what that treatment looks like and how long you need to be in treatment to really heal your brain and to, to start to create more meaningful relationships. I think, you know, that isn't a piece that we've talked about yet, but with P T S D , I mean, you, you tend to isolate , you tend to feel that emotional detachment , um, and just really inability to connect with others. So it's starting to, to develop that and to be able to have more of that meaningful contact in your, your day-to-day life as well.

Yeah, and I, I think that's something that , uh, doesn't get talked about enough is that, you know, you're , you're not, you know, your spouse also sees you go through this, your kids see, you go through this, your parents go see, you go through this, your friends , um, that there's so many different, I feel like areas of that P T S D effects , uh, not only the person who's going through it, but the people who are also near them, close to them. You know, I know a lot of first responders shut down. I used to, I was very good about just shutting it off, kind of like having a work face essentially, where, you know, you go into work, it's like, okay, time to put on the straight face, look sharp, but also put up those barriers, you know, put up those protective walls that people can't get into. And a lot of times we bring that home to our family. Uh , you know, it's, it's so easy to, because sometimes you don't even understand that you're doing it. What would you say, in your opinion, why it's so hard for first responders to seek mental health help?

It's so complicated because I do think that first responders, they are held to a higher standard in a lot of ways. They're there to protect us. Um, they're there to protect the community, and that is the training they receive and the responsibility that they take on day to day . So in that, I think there is, you know, there's fear of seeking help, fear of losing your job. Um, you know what, if you do develop P T S D and it is impacting your work, you may need to do like a fitness for duty evaluation. And what if the outcome is you can't do that work anymore. Um, a lot of times first responders are the primary breadwinners in their families, so that brings up a whole other kind of stressor for them to consider. So I think that's one piece. And then I think another piece is just kind of this lack of awareness. Um, I know , uh, in preparation for this podcast, I was talking to a friend of mine who was in the military , um, in the Marines in the past, and then has worked on patrol for, for 20 plus years. And as we were kind of talking about P T SS D and, and just what those symptoms were, he kind of said, oh, maybe I do have P T S D. Like, I never really knew what it was, you know, having been someone who had experienced a lot of violence and death on patrol throughout his career, hadn't really realized that how it was impacting him. So I think there is that lack of awareness and just being desensitized, like you kind of said Jason, I mean, you have to continue to do your work every day . So you're used to dealing with crisis, you're used to kind of presenting in a certain way, and it's hard to switch back and forth. It's hard to be desensitized and not personalizing situations. Um, even though they may remind us of things within our family, you know, maybe you have kids and you're, you're witnessing a violent event involving a child or things like that. I mean , you have to find that separation to continue to do your job, but yet in doing that, you often lose that emotional capacity and really get desensitized in general. So it's hard to just choose like, okay, I'm going to, you know, compartmentalize all of this without it falling, you know, into your, spilling into your personal life as well.

Yeah, absolutely. That I think , uh, you hit the nail on the head with that is it's in that kind of job, whether you're fire e m s, law enforcement , uh, you have to get used to putting things aside that you can't have so much emotion on the job because that could, that could affect you, that you put up that barrier, have to put up that shield, you know, let's say a first responder , uh, you know, I hope even in this podcast, someone, it does trigger something that they start thinking about this more. What is, for them listening, what is something they can do as a first step in terms of getting help for P T S D?

I mean, I think some of it's really is that that first step is that self-awareness piece. So even listening to this podcast may be a first step for some folks to really learning more about it and also to kind of validate people's experience and normalize that yes, you have a hard job, you experience a ton of trauma on a daily basis, and you have to find meaning in your own personal life and create that balance. A lot of times we're taught just in, in this field to have other friends that aren't just in law enforcement. We can easily, and Jason, you know, like you can easily get into telling those war stories Oh yeah. About different individuals that we, we know in different situations. And it kind of does put you in that, that dopamine rush kind of state. Um, and, you know, it's exciting work and it's easy to go there and to want to kind of have that conversation, but it also doesn't create the balance that we need in order to really take care of ourselves. Um, I think a lot of it comes down to just that self-care and finding something that you find pleasure in and find meaning in, whether it's exercise or , um, yoga or whatever it is. I think it's finding those hobbies and really trying to just completely forget about , um, what that role is as a first responder and just really create balance in your life. In addition to that, I think, you know, most places do have employee assistant programs or wellness programs. Um, they often have police psychologists or people available, and I definitely think that those individuals are underutilized. And so that would kind of be the next step to reach out and to have someone to talk to and, and to understand that that's normal. I know for me as a psychologist, it's like, if I can get free therapy, that's great. I think we have to change that, that mentality for first responders to understand it's okay to want to kind of unload and have someone outside of your family to, to listen to you. Um, you know, your family doesn't always want to hear your, your day-to-day stories, and, and it may not be healthy to always bring that, that home to them.

Yeah, no, I, I think , uh, it's funny you say that. I remember , uh, years ago when we met Nikki and , uh, when I had a , an inmate who hung himself in the shower. I remember , uh, maybe a day or two afterwards , um, you came down and , uh, you were talking to someone else, and I remember you , uh, something that kind of stuck out with me. You're like, Hey, how are you doing? And, and , and I, I'm not gonna lie, you totally threw me off guard there. I was like, wait, what? I was like, why are , what do you mean, how am I doing? And you know, you're like, you know, I heard what happened , uh, you know, let's, let's talk. And, and, and even that just kinda like threw me off my game. I was like, whoa, like <laugh> , what do you mean? Like, how am I doing? Because immediately it's just kind of something that sometimes with first responders, we get skeptical, why are, you know, what's going on <laugh> ? Like , you know, are, are you trying to send me to therapy? Are you gonna do this? Am I gonna be able to work? But I remember you were actually the first person I actually ever told , um, I'm not doing great right now. I'm not doing great. You know? Um, I think that because talking to someone else and being able to kind of just kind of decompress, and I know , I remember I used to sit in the office with you and just kind of like talk about it. And because even for me that was therapeutic , uh, just being able to talk about it and just kind of, you know, say, look , I, you know, I , I feel all this on my chest because , uh, going home and explaining to your spouse like, Hey, this is what I just saw. This was the outcome. Um, you know, all these different things. It's, it's hard to do that, you know, it's hard. And it , and it also takes an emotional toll on them too , if my wife or plenty of things. Um, you know, and she was great about it 'cause she worked in healthcare, but as my wife, it's like, yeah, that's gotta take a toll hearing day in and day out. This is, this is what's going on with my day. You know, and I'm ever since then, Nikki kid, you not , I'm a firm proponent and , uh, <laugh> being open about it and also just being , uh, more receptive to that and , and whether it is therapy or what have you. Um, what are some other ways , uh, you know, we talked a little bit about alcohol. Is there any other ways we , you have seen with P T S D of ways people cope with it?

You know, I think like, like you just explained, sometimes seeking out, even maybe you're not ready to see a therapist, right? That may be a huge next step for you to even fathom, let alone seeing some with one within an employee employee assistance program , um, where you may fear that information gets back to your employer, right? So I think even having those conversations, you know, most people work with behavioral health professionals now. Um, it's becoming more common, whether it's coss responds or whether there's mental health professionals working, you know, within the jail system. And so even starting that conversation with a mental health professional as a friend, right, it's, it's nice to be able to have that conversation. I know for me as a mental health professional, I often try to just normalize first responders experience because, you know, I've experienced my own vicarious and secondary trauma just from working in a correctional setting for the number of years that I have. And honestly, I have been fortunate not to have directly been involved in traumatic situations or even witnessed very many traumatic situations in the setting. But it's been more the exposure to knowing a lot about their charges and, and kind of having that information of sitting with someone who appears to be, you know, a normal human being who you can connect to on a therapeutic level. But yet knowing that that person is capable of some pretty horrific things , um, I think that can kind of mess with people's worldview in general and can make you kind of have this distrust for the world or kind of have that cynical view in general. Yeah . So I think for me, it's always trying to normalize those experiences. And for some people, unfortunately, it may be changing what you're doing. Um, I think as first responders, you know, most times you could kind of step out of that direct role a little bit, even if for a while and do something different. I know for me, after working in the prison for a while , I needed to kind of step away from that for a bit and then move more into kind of a leadership role where I wasn't doing direct care every single day. Um, that was emotionally exhausting for me and, and traumatic in a lot of ways as well. So I think sometimes it is knowing when to take that step back and not necessarily make a career change, but for some folks that may be the direction they need to go to be healthy and to to be happy. So I think it's kind of looking at all of those, those aspects and seeing what's best for you and really making that, that decision for you and your family.

Yeah, that's, I think , uh, such a great piece of advice is kind of almost doing like a self-assessment on yourself is almost saying where, where am I at? Where, what are the issues that I'm struggling with? Where is it that I think I need to go? I had 'em , I've done it plenty of times. Um, you know, I think that's something that's hard for people to do. I think it's hard for sometimes people, it's never, it's not a pretty process. It's not an easy process to do to say, where, where in my life am I , uh, struggling? Where am I , uh, what are the things that I need to fix? I give credit to people who do it because , um, that's one of the ways to get better because it's, it's such a serious thing. And I think, you know, nowadays it's starting to show more of, we're researching more, we're more open about it, we're more willing to talk about it. Um, but especially even in first responders, it's still like, we call it the stigma, you know, we're trying to break is that it's like, yeah, it's okay to talk about it. And two , with organizations, you may be afraid that , uh, you know, if your captain finds out or whoever finds out that, yeah , I'm not gonna have a job anymore. But I think even reaching out to people, even in higher positions to say, Hey, look, you know, if someone comes out to you, lent them an ear because that's gonna make them better at their job. It's going to , you know, it's gonna do wonders for them. You know, one thing that just popped up, and I know we talked about a little , uh, bit ago, but , uh, swapping stories. Um, I , you know, I , when we were talking about this a couple weeks ago, and when you said about having friends in the same profession as you, I <laugh> , it's so true because yeah , you , you get there, you have all your buddies over, and that's, it's like, that's all you do. Like, you don't even talk about like, yeah, it's , it's 75 degrees and sunny out today. And like , uh, this, you know, this is, this is what's going on in my life. It's like, hey, remember, remember when we had this, or remember when we did that? I, you know, in your opinion, Nikki does that sometimes also kind of amplify it, where , correct me if I'm wrong, I feel like sometimes it's not always therapeutic too , when all you're constantly doing is swapping stories of traumatic things you may have seen or that you have done , um, because you're kind of , you're , you're normalizing it essentially. Is that a fair assessment?

Yeah, you know, I always call it, call it like a trauma bond. You truly have this trauma bond , um, as first responders with each other depending on the situation. I mean, it's kind of like going into a fire with each other and you know, those people have your back. So I mean, that kind of brotherhood that exists is real. That kind of loyalty is real. So there's so many pieces to it that, you know, being there for each other, knowing that you have each other's back is so important in the day-to-day kind of line of duty work. But then again, like you said, being able to separate that and, and shut it off, because I do think to just exist in that state where you're almost reliving a lot of those events, which isn't necessarily healthy , uh, unless you're doing it more in a therapeutic controlled setting where a therapist is walking you through that and can really help you to process that experience, it's not going to be healthy for you to continue to, to relive that experience, discussing it kind of with your coworkers . So

Yeah , I, I, I was just, you know, with you talking about swapping stories, it just , uh, yeah, it reminds me of exactly of, of , uh, first responders , uh, 90% of my friends are , uh, still in law enforcement. And , uh, you know, you get , you do, you get used to just talking about , uh, you know, things you guys did together that yeah, it , it becomes so normalized, you know? Um, yeah .

And, and Jason, I would just add, just to kind of touch a little more on the , um, just, you know, the stigma of, of trauma and mental health with first responders, just understanding that law enforcement and first responders in general die from suicide almost twice as much as , uh, in the line of duty , um, if not more. So I think looking at those numbers, it's just important to see, like, you know, oftentimes the family members' fear is that they're going to die , um, at work. But the reality is, it's more the mental health and that we , that we need to focus on. I think a lot of the training for first responders is often tactical and physical, and there's that lack of emotional and mental health support, and a lot of the job is more emotional and mental. And so I'm hoping we can get more towards focusing and really appreciating that if we want law enforcement and first responders to continue to protect us, we need to protect them and take care of them . And really continuing to encourage that mental health issues is not a sign of weakness. And if anything, it's making them stronger emotionally, stronger mentally , um, you know, you can only compartmentalize for so long before it kind of starts overflowing. We have to be able to support and really get rid of that stigma for first responders so that they can continue to do their job. I think most people are drawn to the job because they want to do service work, they want to help take care of others, they want to protect the community. Um, and in order to keep doing that, they need the support mentally and emotionally.

I, I think that's great. I mean, if I could literally put that in like quotations and plaster that on every agency door, I would, because I think , uh, Nikki , that was, I, I mean , that is so well said. Seriously, it that was , um, taking care of them so they can still protect us, protecting them, for them to protect us because it's so true. It's, it's, you know, just because you can't see mental health , uh, issues does not mean that it's a battle. It's probably the biggest battle sweeping the entire country, if not the world for first responders that , um, COVID , uh, was a prime example. You saw so many different things. Uh, medical, fire, law enforcement, all , all of them saw so many different things just in the last two years, you didn't see as much of, Hey, how are , you know, how are they doing? You know, it's like they weren't out working overtime. Uh, they're away from their families quarantining from their families. And I think that is just such a perfect thought out way to put it, because I think that is so accurate and so true. Um, you know , in terms of P T S D, what are, let's say someone, you know, really doesn't want to try to get help for it. What, what are the long-term effects of P T S D being untreated?

Oftentimes, unfortunately, it probably would result in more of suicidal behavior or , um, alcoholism, long-term alcoholism , um, or drug use. And unfortunately just not living a fulfilling life at that point, right? If you're dealing with that trauma day in, day out, and then you're also looking at just the physical aspect. I mean, if you're living kind of like I said before in that amygdala hijack kind of state all the time, you know, you're going to be more prone to heart attacks , um, high blood pressure, all of the things that come with being in that traumatized state all of the time. And as we know, law enforcement and first responders in general do often die earlier than others because of that, right? So there's, there's certain numbers , uh, I don't know the exact statistics on it, but once these individuals retire, there's often a short time period that people live because they're so used to being in that state all the time. Um, basically it's, it's like adrenal fatigue where they're adrenals are just shot from firing at all times and living on cortisol and adrenaline all the time, where they often, unfortunately, will die from some kind of medical complications or physical complications.

And I , and I've heard the same thing , uh, you know, there , you're , you get so used to go, go, go, go, go. You know, our bodies can only take so much naturally, you know, no matter what you do, our bodies can only take so much naturally. And I think that's where the stress management comes in, the anxiety management, the P T S D management of, of the first thing is acknowledging it is, Hey, there, there's an issue here. Um, there's something that's going on that I need to take a look at. And like we said, kind of that self-reflection of what else do I need to do? Um, because that's, that's a very crazy statistic to see about that. And also with alcoholism, with drug addiction, that also adds on to more things that are putting your body in harm's way, not only just living in that constant stress state of mind, but is also adding alcohol drugs, because yeah, like we said, it's just, they , it , it's a bandaid. It's a , it's essentially a bandaid and it doesn't, it doesn't fix anything. It just covers the problem until it finally rears its head

To, but in a little bit. I think that's so shocking, right? Um, to hear , I, I never even thought of that, you know, the adrenal glands kind of giving up and letting go and then having a lot of retirees dying early, whether it's from suicide or from their medical conditions, I think that's really eyeopening to me. And I, I don't even work in that field, but it makes complete sense. It really does. I guess my, my question for you, Nikki , on, on that is I feel like maybe sometimes we feel like our chiefs or our sergeants or people aren't necessarily listening, quote unquote , simply because maybe they have some unresolved things that they're working through. Like, do you feel like sometimes people will shut out others because they truly haven't dealt with their trauma that they've seen in their careers?

I think sometimes that can be the case , um, where, you know, if you ha don't have that support or have supervisors or leaders who aren't aware or who don't value , uh, mental health, and you're not necessarily gonna feel like you can open up or , uh, get the support you need for something like that. Um, and I think, again, kind of going back to that brotherhood of first responders in general, I don't think it's the norm to just kind of open up, from what I've heard, firehouses are kind of like fraternities, right? So I can only imagine that , uh, those conversations are about mental health and wellness. Um, and so I'm just, you know, I think that's, that's hard to start to integrate that in to a culture that is not really structured , um, and doesn't have the history of, of having those difficult discussions , um, without maybe being, you know, being kind of thrown under the bus or , um, ridiculed because you're this sissy at that point talking about, you know, these kind of different issues that aren't as accepted to talk about. So I think it is finding those trusted people in your life that are capable of having more. To me, it's really about emotional intelligence, right? And really having that awareness and, and having that maturity to step outside of some of that and see that someone's really struggling and being able to be there for them and whatever that capacity might look like, and hopefully getting past some of that generational , um, traditional thinking.

Yeah , that , I think that's a great point. And , uh, you know, great question, Kayla. 'cause uh, I think the other thing too is that , uh, when you, when you take a look at it, like offering peer support systems , um, you know, the agency I was at before Nikki , you remember they had a peer support system. Uh, you know, you have someone who can check in with you that you can call in the middle of the night. Um, and I think that's also part of it with P T S D is having someone that, like you said, a a buddy, a friend who you can go to and be real and honest with them without fearing, you know, am I gonna lose my job now? Am I gonna , is is all these happened ? Because naturally, you know, in , in being a first responder, sometimes you're just naturally a skeptic because, you know, you see so many things , uh, you know, you don't really see the world through rose colored lenses essentially. Um, you know, you kind of are a little more reserved. You, you kind of like, you know, what is going on with that. Um, so I think that's another thing too is, is you know, organizations getting peer support , uh, getting a program going and saying, Hey, let's talk more about it. Whether it's stress debriefings, having that one-on-one time, or just having a straight up open door policy to say, yeah, come into my office anytime and let's talk it through.

Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree with that. And sometimes it is easier to, to speak to a peer versus a therapist , um, and maybe it's not as stigmatized. And so that's a good place to kinda start and have those conversations. Um, I know for me, you know, I, I've always had like a best friend who happens to be a psychologist, and so that's always nice to be able to bounce things off of her and to, to kind of get that perspective. I was joking the other day and, and sent her a text and said, thank you. It's so nice to have a B F F that's a psychologist, you know, free therapy <laugh> . So, but it's just nice to be able to just have someone you can be honest with and open with, because I think we can try to hide from our demons and, and try to bury them, but they're still going to be there. So I think having someone to reach out to and have those conversations is a great place to start. Um, and it's just so important, you know, the more we isolate, the more we kind of turn inward versus outward is, is likely the more we're gonna see the, the real problems where we are gonna see the depression and anger and the , the substance abuse.

That's great. I, I think , um, you know, first and foremost, Nikki , thank you so much for taking the time today. That was awesome. I mean, you're , you hit everything perfectly. Um, you know, and I think just kind of just shedding that light on P T S D and also informationally , uh, explaining, I mean, you did a phenomenal job of explaining exactly what it is. Um, you know, even things today I learned that I was like, I never knew that. Um, you know, and that's kind of what we're trying to do. You know, we're trying to , uh, shed some light on it and just get the awareness out there. And also breaking that stigma to say, it is okay to go seek help. It is okay to have it. It's not, it's not the end of the world. This is something that , uh, it's better if you start now rather than later. So , uh, Nikki , we thank you so much for being on the podcast.

This concludes this episode of Breaking the Stigma with McNeil and Company. If you are someone you love, needs to speak to someone immediately, please reach out to the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-662-FOUR 3 5 7. We look forward to you joining us for future episodes of breaking the Stigma, be well and go safely.